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Poll: How should stat gains work?
This poll is closed.
You can choose where they go
33.33%
4 33.33%
They go into something developed during the rp
58.33%
7 58.33%
Something else! Something else!
8.33%
1 8.33%
Total 12 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

 
Stat growths, how do they work

#1
SO! How should stat growths work, assuming we are using them?

- You get gains in stats you choose yourself.
- Stat gains go in aspects you used in a dungeon (e.g. spent your time punching a wall? You get a +2 in something relevant to that, so strength but probably not intelligence).

Keep other discussions to the other threads please!
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By TwilightBlade of PC. =D
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#2
Thus far, 3 votes for 'stats in what you do', and nothing for anything else. Best vote otherwise if you don't want this! Because I do.
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By TwilightBlade of PC. =D
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#3
I will note that I voted for "stats in what you do", but I do have ideas for other stuff, just not enough to form a complete system on its own. Unfortunately, I'm unable to change my vote at all, so while I still can be swayed by interesting ideas, this is what I'm going for as of the two available options (the third's really a non-option, because there aren't really any alternatives being considered and it just promotes more stalling rather than getting something done).
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#4
I was wavering between these two for a long while, but in the end, I've now voted for deciding which stat of yours grows. I ended up choosing this option because I find it to be more appealing as a player. Yes, it makes less sense when it comes to game mechanics, and having stats grow as you use them would probably be more interesting in some ways, but I think it's the simplest, most overall satisfactory solution to have everyone choose.

Ultimately, though, I think we're going to have lots of different dungeons, and not all of them may even have the sort of challenges you're looking for with that specific character. And, personally, I enjoy the element of strategy you get from balancing out your character while focusing on the stats you find the most important personally.

Also, I want to even out the responsibilities some. If the responsibility of having balanced stats is on the player, the DM can focus on all that other stuff they're going to have to take care of, like plot, NPC's, encounters, keeping things interesting... Which is going to be a lot of work, and I doubt anyone is going to want to DM if it's going to be a full-day job or something.
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#5
Mm, I was thinking that would be balanced out by having LFG threads (in a hypothetical tavern) where you made sure you had a balanced party before heading into a dungeon :)

Also, it may just be me but I find the DM's prerogative of fitting the dungeon to the party to be one of the most important things about being a DM. And as a forum game I'm not sure it'll go as fast as that. Personally considering that most tabletop games do already require the DM to take care of most of that (and they've done fine so far), I'd say it's not that big a problem. Note that in many tabletop games the DM will in fact want to check character sheets just to make sure the players don't unbalance their characters, so that's not new either.
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#6
My opinion arose from the assumption that the dungeon is created first and then characters sign up for it as they please, as individuals as opposed to parties. Then whoever happens to be in that dungeon can either co-operate or not, however the general personality of their character happens to work. In that sort of situation it would be pretty tricky to plan balanced stuff when you don't know who's going to be playing that dungeon... Though I guess you can sort of adapt to whoever it turns out to be.

I would also assume there's some moderation of stat assignment ("No, you actually can't put all your points in Strength... Please reconsider or we won't approve this character, hmmkay?") but my overall point was that I'd prefer to leave that to each player. DM's will have different opinions on how stats should grow and what falls into what and such, and I don't know, it just seems more logical from that point of view to let it be up to the players.

Of course I'm fine with the other plan, though. I'd just personally probably go with players choosing their stats, but seeing how the poll's going, I definitely don't mind the more likely result.
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#7
(19th Oct 2012, 07:01 PM)An-chan Wrote: My opinion arose from the assumption that the dungeon is created first and then characters sign up for it as they please, as individuals as opposed to parties. Then whoever happens to be in that dungeon can either co-operate or not, however the general personality of their character happens to work. In that sort of situation it would be pretty tricky to plan balanced stuff when you don't know who's going to be playing that dungeon... Though I guess you can sort of adapt to whoever it turns out to be.

I would also assume there's some moderation of stat assignment ("No, you actually can't put all your points in Strength... Please reconsider or we won't approve this character, hmmkay?") but my overall point was that I'd prefer to leave that to each player. DM's will have different opinions on how stats should grow and what falls into what and such, and I don't know, it just seems more logical from that point of view to let it be up to the players.

Of course I'm fine with the other plan, though. I'd just personally probably go with players choosing their stats, but seeing how the poll's going, I definitely don't mind the more likely result.
For the dungeons, I actually like that idea. That create a free roleplay-esque platform to play in, plus it reduces the chance of anyone possibly cheating due to having prior knowledge of the dungeon.

I voted #2, because I find #1 too risky. If players have the freedom to up any stat they'd like, it would create a high risk of certain players overpowering their Strength or Dexterity for example, making it unfair once they've a higher stat than others.
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#8
(19th Oct 2012, 07:01 PM)An-chan Wrote: My opinion arose from the assumption that the dungeon is created first and then characters sign up for it as they please, as individuals as opposed to parties. Then whoever happens to be in that dungeon can either co-operate or not, however the general personality of their character happens to work. In that sort of situation it would be pretty tricky to plan balanced stuff when you don't know who's going to be playing that dungeon... Though I guess you can sort of adapt to whoever it turns out to be.

Of course that's how it's going to be; if any DM were to actually start creating his scenario only after he'd gotten enough players, the players would be left hanging for a while. The point is that you can definitely adapt a dungeon to whoever it turns out to be. INT-heavy team? Replace the breakable barred door with a puzzle lock, add a few more ambushes they need to intuit as opposed to straight out battles. As far as Temporal Diamond's concern of prior knowledge goes, having a static dungeon doesn't necessarily mean having a static scenario; villains will fortify their locations or move things around in the time they've been there. In fact I think it's pretty cool if the room description for some rooms references past dungeon-crawls as well, although it'll be more an easter egg than anything. As for Temporal Diamond's other concern, I'll re-rail it to the character stats thread.
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#9
Can't there be some sort of compromise? For example, DM assigns you stats in what you clearly worked on, but leaves you a point to assign for yourself; or DM chooses what stats you worked on and lets you put however many points into those stats as you want?
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#10
I was thinking that myself a little bit earlier, haha. Would still want a focus on stat points being gained in what you do, but a 'bonus' point or allowing people to arrange as they please from a range the DM chooses based on events sounds good so both sides have some sort of control.
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#11
From the other thread:
An-chan Wrote:Maybe we could come up with a system where the DM gives the player two or three choices for stats that can grow as a kind of compromise... I just don't like the idea of forcing people to grow stats they may not want to grow. If they have some kind of vision for their character, they should be allowed to work towards that. I think that sort of thing will minimize people wanting to switch characters or drop old characters.

I think this is probably the best we can come up with, honestly.
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#12
OKAY SO WE NEED A DECISION FINALLY becaus stalling is bad

DMs choose what stats the player can increase from the action. If need be maybe DM can have restrictions (you know so obvious abuse on it can be restricted).

That way stat boosts are still from what one does in the dungeon (according to the DM), and the player still has some control on how their character improves.

OBJECT NOW OR FOREVER HOLD YOUR PEACE. AND PEAS.
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By TwilightBlade of PC. =D
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#13
I've played a few tabletop RPGs where DMs just tell the players how they leveled up (Cyberpunk?) and they accept that. I honestly don't think it will be a huge problem going in, after all, if you get upset because the DM didn't level up the character the way you wanted, well then you probably weren't playing the character the way you wanted him played in the first place :P

I must note that I this is in before people refuse to do anything than what they want their character to do. Roleplay people, adapt to it. Don't get hung up on the small stuff (and yes stat growths aren't as big a deal as everyone seems to think they are if this isn't a minmax RPG). Obviously the fault with roleplay isn't on your side if the DM makes a completely illogical decision, but have more faith in them to make the right decision. Not the decision that rests best with you, but the right one from a narrative and objective (and thus probably more realistic) perspective.
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#14
Well, from a purely admin point of view, I would prefer it if the player has at least some say over it. Because, honestly, it might be okay for now, but we're going to have new players, and not all of them are going to be experienced roleplayers. Heck, we're even going to have DM's who aren't experienced roleplayers. It might even be their very first rp they're taking part in. And, thinking about this situation, I think it's much, much better to give people at least some control over their stat growth.

Yes, I agree, from a storytelling point-of-view as well as from a game mechanics point-of-view, it makes a lot of sense to simply have the DM decide what happens. After all, they pretty much decide what happens with everything else anyway. But DM's are different. They're not going to all be consistent about stat growths. It doesn't matter if they're not consistent with other dungeons, because as long as the dungeon itself is internally consistent, the game is fair. However, stat raises will carry over from dungeon to dungeon, and there will inevitably be some discrepancy over how DM's treat things like that.

Ergo, letting the player choose from the choices given by the DM is, in my opinion, the most effective way to keep everyone happy and avoid drama and complaints. Happy players are just as important as balance in the game. In this case, we just have to make sure we do actually make the stats quite balanced, so that a character with all their points in Strength will actually be hindered more than assisted by the short-sighted stat point assignment. And then we just make sure people know this.

That's my take on it, anyway.
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#15
My opinion is that going halfway doesn't really solve any problem. Basically the DM gives the players a choice. If we're not having a huge variety of stats and skills, the choice will be minimal. Either the DM will let the player choose the stat he wants, or the "drama" ensues anyway if the stats the player can choose from aren't the ones he wants. The situation in the first place assumes that the DM has absolutely no clue what the player wants his character to be built around, or that the possibility of building a "broken" character exists within the game. It further assumes that players will only want to add into one of a few statistics, and are likely to play characters differently from how they want their characters to be. Honestly going half-and-half is just ineffectual, giving the illusion of choice when there isn't much more to choose from, at the cost of more work on both sides. Are players going to be happier? Maybe, but that's only because of the lie. Either let them choose what stat they want, or let the DM choose. Either that or have such a wide variety of stats (the experience-buy system) that they would otherwise have to choose between them anyway, rather than having one single choice they want to make.

P.S. Making stats mean less in the grand scheme of things, just providing small bonuses, will go a long way towards displacing basically the first paragraph you've written. And just because DMs haven't played RPs before doesn't mean they won't have a modicum of understanding as to how the simple system you've delineated works. I am, on behalf of all inexperienced RPers, indignant that you think such a "situation" merits anything at all :P
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#16
Well, I'm an inexperienced RPer myself, and I would feel kind of uncomfortable assigning people their stats just like that. I can throw situations and environments at them, but I don't want to outright make calls like that on their character... Maybe that's just me, though. I'm not expecting everyone to put all their points in the same stat - that was concern someone else brought up, I don't remember who - because I've been vouching for everyone just deciding their own stats since the beginning. Some people seemed to think that was a bad idea, so I proposed this compromise. I still think it would work just fine, but likewise I think the compromise would work at least okay. Given the choice, though, I'd probably just let everyone choose.

Also, even though the choice would admittedly be quite minimal (probably between two stats or so), it would be an actual choice. Do I want to put this point in Strength, or do I want it in Charisma? Which would be more useful? Which did I end up using more this time, which was more fun to roleplay out? It would still add a level of strategy, and do I think it would make things easier for the DM - after all, if somebody works equally hard on two stats during a dungeon, and you can only give them one point, how would you decide which stat it goes in? I feel like letting the player choose is simply the easiest option for everyone.

How inexperienced RPers are a "situation", as you put it, is that we are generally more afraid to try out positions of power, such as DMing, when we're still quite insecure about our abilities even as players. I'd like to make it as easy and non-intimidating as possible to try out running little dungeons, because I don't want to have the situation we had with ASBN, namely having people who want to play but no-one really to ref for them. In creating the system, we can, to some degree, try to smooth out issues like that a bit and actually make it easier for inexperienced people to jump right in and feel at home doing all these things... If that makes sense at all. I didn't really mean that new players are so stupid they won't understand what they're doing. More like they'd be more insecure about what they're doing, and less inclined to try out things that aren't entirely clearly explained - which DMing pretty much won't be because it's so very subjective. From what I understand, anyway.

I'm not sure if any of this makes any sense, but yeah.
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#17
Well, thus far only Sentrovasi seems to be against the current 'bit of both' solution, and as we're going by majority... if someone else doesn't like this option and just wants the 'DM chooses' option (other options are not so favoured as that). then you've got...oh, say two days to be fair. Otherwise I think we really should just move on rather than have nothing happen.
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#18
And as nobody objected I guess that's how it's going to be unless we change it down the line after testing! \o/ Yaaaaaay decision.
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